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on this episode of skeptic oh there's

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all these idiosyncrasies to the

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tradition that he has this deep

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knowledge of that it is just impossible

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to believe that this guy from Kent who

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just you know rolls out of bed would he

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couldn't know it took me 30 years so of

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research before i finally got it right

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and not a coincidence was considered the

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Dead Sea Scrolls everything it couldn't

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come out of his head I think that's one

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of the things that people have a hard

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time especially me of a hard time

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wrapping my head around what the heck is

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Steven doing coming back writing books

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Stevens message is very similar to that

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with the Franciscans and the higher we

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go to more we are each other the line we

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go the more separate we are stay with us

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for skeptical

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[Music]

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look miss skeptic aware we explore

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controversial science and spirituality

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with leading researchers thinkers and

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their critics you know I've been wanting

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to do a show about channeling for quite

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some time because between this crazy

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scientific atheism I wouldn't believe it

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even if it was true kind of mindset and

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the gullible I'll believe anything as

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long as I don't have to think too hard

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and it doesn't conflict with my existing

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beliefs between those two there's a huge

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amount of and the gullible I'll believe

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anything as long as it fits in with my

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existing beliefs there's this huge

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amount of stuff out there that claims to

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be channeled material from ascended

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beings whatever that means that purports

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to communicate the real truth so when

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Michael Cox an 88 year old Anglican

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priest from New Zealand contact me about

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his book afterlife teachings from

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Stephen the martyr I thought wow here's

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a great opportunity I'm not sure that

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Stephen the martyr is even a real being

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and that he's channeled this book for

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this guy great stuff I want to talk to

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him so I did and I have to tell you and

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you'll hear this I mean I kind of hit

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him with everything I got I asked all

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the questions that I wanted to ask about

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channel material why we should believe

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that what he did to verify whether it

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was really having communication with

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this historical figure from 2,000 years

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ago and how he went about verifying that

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which turns out to be quite amazing I

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mean he really did the kind of research

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that you would expect a historian or a

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biblical scholar to do to find out if

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there's anything to it so gotta give him

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kudos for that and I also asked him

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about a bunch of other strange things

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synchronicities and other pretty amazing

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things that happened surrounding this

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whole experience that he had for 40

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years 40 year experience he's going to

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talk about now the one thing I have to

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alert you to this interview it doesn't

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start in the normal way I called them up

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just to kind of do a pre-interview and

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we're on

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rolling into the real interview you can

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figure it out it's not that hard it's an

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Anglican priest from New Zealand who

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wrote a book on channeling and I start

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talking to them about whether we should

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even have an interview you'll catch on

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really quickly here's my interview with

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michael cox I'm driven loving driven to

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prove religion by scientific research

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and experience since there's about five

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so I wondered with you you were a symbol

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a driven person I think it to me to me

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that's backwards we can't be driven to

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prove something we have to work from the

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data and work up and see what it proves

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and that's one of the issues I have with

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some of the work that comes from this

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whole vein you know I interviewed a guy

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not too long ago I've done a tremendous

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amount of research into the near-death

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experience Raj i think is the most

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important research improving one the

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craziness of the scientific materialism

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that is just blinded people and also is

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absolutely and hidden people from God I

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mean let's face it I mean this is what

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this is what the after-death

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communication research I think has to

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say is God it says God God God is no

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getting away called everywhere if it

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whip we're part of God exactly you can't

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and you can't get away from it you can't

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dance around it you can't qualify it and

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say it's quantum this to that it's just

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there that's us you count but so the guy

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I interview is as a guy who is a really

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Christian guy and he came on the show

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and he had a very Christian

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interpretation of his this guy's name is

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Ian McCormick and he came out he had a

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very Christian interpretation of his

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near-death experience and I totally

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accept that when he died he went and saw

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Jesus and he put Christ consciousness

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right he didn't see Jesus

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because Jesus we refer to as someone who

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lived right if you believe that Jesus

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lived but he saw a being that said here

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put your hand in my hand you know that

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and gave him the experience of Jesus I

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accept that but I don't accept that as

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proof of a historical Jesus I accept it

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as part of a body of after death

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communication that makes it clear that

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our consciousness is more that God

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exists that there is this great mystery

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that were a part of so that's the issue

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and the problem i guess i have that i

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thought we should have this chat and

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talk about because i don't do interviews

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where i talk to people and I go oh wow

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isn't that great I'm like to have more

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of a dialogue in a conversation like

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this that's what I want okay Craig I'm

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dedicated to i'm at regimen I've been a

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priest for 63 years on an old man now

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yeah yeah you might not believe in you

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look at me but however I've had enough

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experience to sink a ship and and the

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experience tells me it will all

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participants in the same one mind when

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the Pope said there are two doctrines

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love God and love neighbor and nothing

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else I was very pleased and also and

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Christ's message for me is love of God

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love of neighbor we are part of each

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other was no distinction of race or

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belief comes into the story of the Good

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Samaritan salvation does not for me

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consist of the blood of Christ or

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anything like that it consists of coming

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to God like the prodigal son I think

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Jesus teach he was very simple and we've

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got her in our house with Courtland a

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brahmin indian living with us and

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came to us on hill and he said to me I'm

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not an Indian I'm not a Brahmin I'm a

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human being and that is a good thing to

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say how do you reconcile that then with

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church doctrine church dogma I mean that

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as i shared with you in the in the shows

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that I did why do we need Christianity

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then what what does Christianity add to

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that equation because the message that

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you're talking about the wisdom that

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you're bringing is shared across

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virtually every culture every wisdom

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tradition there is nothing special about

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Christianity with regard to that message

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it's not unique it's not special it's

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not different why do we need

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Christianity and why do people use this

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important finding scientific finding of

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after death communication as a way to

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prop up and somehow raise up

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Christianity above anything else so if

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you want to say Christianity is another

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jumping off point into the pool but no

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one has any problem with that but that's

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never really been the message the

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message has always been subtly that it

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is somehow special unique different

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better right my mentor Steven you've

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read about said this the pursuit of

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Christ is the pursuit of this

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consciousness with you call it Christian

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yellow green or what if you'd like to

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call it right and it's the same pursuit

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as the higher phones via of Hinduism

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Buddhism entered the all seeking what it

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means to be fields of part of the

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universal mind or spirit sirum about

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defend Christians in this way and say

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that we'll all different people with

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different points of view and in my

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liberal anglican church or purse

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capelean church and we've got hindus and

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buddhists and were all worshiping

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together but relation together as people

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raining love of God the love of neighbor

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and yes sir some of the Christian hymns

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of all very very good and internal and

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executives would be to be saying and

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some parts of the Bible are very very

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good indeed that's what I've been

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preaching rather dour 63 years the good

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bits but but on the other hand I do

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recognize as Jesus himself said we're

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all children of God including that the

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Muslims and the atheists in every kid's

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name we are all children God we are all

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connected to each other my experiences

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have been very dodgy with major

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synchronicities I previously had a major

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synchronicity with a professor called

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steven rosen heroes previous of

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psychology in staten island is now

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philosopher and in vancouver ah years

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ago i've been reading Fritjof Capra

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Fritjof Capra mentioned the physicist

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david bohm and i was very impressed with

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air what he's saying David Bohm is a way

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of explaining my experiences CERN I got

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off my bed I was reading in bed and I

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went to the entrance of my country

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vicarage read that post box stands in

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the post box was a book from steven

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rosen of staten island and then the next

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thing here was acknowledgments a lotof

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might be expressed my deep thanks to

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david bohm arthur c clarke and Michael

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Cox here was my name written under the

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name of bomb five minutes after I heard

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about him now I've had so much of that

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but it's it forced me to see life in a

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very different way Michael as long as

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you brought up that story let me ask the

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obvious question what do you make of how

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do you interpret in general the idea of

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a synchronous

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because this is something that has come

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into the collective consciousness we

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hear it more and more and more people

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talking about 1111 and seeing things or

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just more personal synchronicities that

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they have do you have any personal

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insight into what you think the meaning

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of synchronicities are in general not

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your personal synchronicity but why do

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people have synchronicity I've written a

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book on that into the wider dream trying

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to answer that the short answer is I

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don't know a longer answer would be to

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say that the spiritual whole undivided

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whole is a little like a spiritual

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Internet everything is in touch with

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everything else Jay John Bell of CER in

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in Switzerland talks about universal

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causation no local causation everything

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causes everything else well let me just

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interject something Michael because I

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appreciate where you're going and I

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think it's it's fascinating but I have

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to tell you when you make the

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association with the internet and the

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connection there is a group of people

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out there that are taking that in

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another direction and they're taking

272
00:13:26,210 --> 00:13:24,930
everything you said they're saying yeah

273
00:13:28,190 --> 00:13:26,220
yeah yet and then they're taking a

274
00:13:31,310 --> 00:13:28,200
spiritual component out of it and

275
00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:31,320
they're substituting in an artificial

276
00:13:36,650 --> 00:13:34,410
intelligence component of biological

277
00:13:40,460 --> 00:13:36,660
component and Fitz called the simulation

278
00:13:42,650 --> 00:13:40,470
hypothesis they're crazy I tend to I

279
00:13:46,220 --> 00:13:42,660
don't know if I'd go quite that far but

280
00:13:49,100 --> 00:13:46,230
I think you're in a unique position to

281
00:13:52,070 --> 00:13:49,110
kind of connect cross over that bridge

282
00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:52,080
in a way that maybe what I think is

283
00:13:57,290 --> 00:13:54,810
necessary and that's that how do we come

284
00:14:00,530 --> 00:13:57,300
to understand the nature of the

285
00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:00,540
spiritual when it does seem to pop up in

286
00:14:07,250 --> 00:14:03,050
ways that are almost intentionally

287
00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:07,260
disguised as the artificial the

288
00:14:12,710 --> 00:14:10,650
simulated the automated computerized if

289
00:14:14,990 --> 00:14:12,720
you know what I mean ok the whole damn

290
00:14:17,300 --> 00:14:15,000
thing belongs together spiritual

291
00:14:21,230 --> 00:14:17,310
physical it all belongs together it is

292
00:14:22,110 --> 00:14:21,240
rubbish and and otherwise but we're

293
00:14:24,380 --> 00:14:22,120
dealing with

294
00:14:27,030 --> 00:14:24,390
broken whole science says that

295
00:14:30,150 --> 00:14:27,040
experience is that it's an unbroken hole

296
00:14:33,829 --> 00:14:30,160
I have to say that I think that you and

297
00:14:37,829 --> 00:14:33,839
I are living in a kind of a film that's

298
00:14:41,730 --> 00:14:37,839
projected from another level my Stephen

299
00:14:44,940 --> 00:14:41,740
said we are eternal beings all of us but

300
00:14:48,210 --> 00:14:44,950
we are having experiences in a body for

301
00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:48,220
a reason cerelac children looking at our

302
00:14:54,450 --> 00:14:51,850
reflections in pool of water and in our

303
00:14:56,940 --> 00:14:54,460
majan ations in the pool with your

304
00:14:59,070 --> 00:14:56,950
reflections but we're not really react

305
00:15:02,010 --> 00:14:59,080
to eternal beings with limited

306
00:15:03,900 --> 00:15:02,020
consciousness now to keep my eyes noses

307
00:15:07,170 --> 00:15:03,910
to the grindstone of having our

308
00:15:09,500 --> 00:15:07,180
experiences synchronously to me confirms

309
00:15:11,850 --> 00:15:09,510
we're in the surf in this film

310
00:15:13,860 --> 00:15:11,860
interesting interesting let's let's dig

311
00:15:17,820 --> 00:15:13,870
into that a little bit is a good a good

312
00:15:20,670 --> 00:15:17,830
dialogue one my feeling is that these

313
00:15:23,970 --> 00:15:20,680
kind of metaphors are problematic and

314
00:15:26,910 --> 00:15:23,980
that whenever we fall into those we just

315
00:15:28,650 --> 00:15:26,920
stumble all over ourselves my sense and

316
00:15:30,990 --> 00:15:28,660
I can't support this with scientific

317
00:15:34,290 --> 00:15:31,000
evidence is that God is just so much

318
00:15:37,380 --> 00:15:34,300
bigger than we can ever describe or

319
00:15:40,019 --> 00:15:37,390
imagine inside of our container that

320
00:15:42,090 --> 00:15:40,029
we're in that it's almost nonsensical to

321
00:15:44,490 --> 00:15:42,100
start putting our analogies on it it's

322
00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:44,500
like an Internet it's like a telephone

323
00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:46,690
it's like a big clock none of that stuff

324
00:15:52,740 --> 00:15:48,850
works because it's I get the sense that

325
00:15:56,430 --> 00:15:52,750
it's much much much grander than we can

326
00:15:59,640 --> 00:15:56,440
even imagine but I'm telling you hahaha

327
00:16:04,140 --> 00:15:59,650
thanks but the other part that I I guess

328
00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:04,150
still intrigues me and and drives me

329
00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:07,930
forward is that I also don't really feel

330
00:16:13,949 --> 00:16:10,570
comfortable with the idea that we are

331
00:16:15,750 --> 00:16:13,959
children we are actors down here and

332
00:16:17,579 --> 00:16:15,760
there's this one dimension and there's

333
00:16:19,410 --> 00:16:17,589
this other dimension because again the

334
00:16:21,780 --> 00:16:19,420
information that I seem to be taking

335
00:16:23,850 --> 00:16:21,790
back out of this research suggests that

336
00:16:25,650 --> 00:16:23,860
there are again probably so many more

337
00:16:27,449 --> 00:16:25,660
dimensions than we can even imagine and

338
00:16:29,970 --> 00:16:27,459
I'll give you a couple examples like

339
00:16:31,829 --> 00:16:29,980
people say we're here we're sent down

340
00:16:33,690 --> 00:16:31,839
here to learn a lesson this and that and

341
00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:33,700
that somewhat confirmed through the

342
00:16:37,980 --> 00:16:36,010
near-death experience research when

343
00:16:39,990 --> 00:16:37,990
people die and they go to this other

344
00:16:42,330 --> 00:16:40,000
realm and they sometimes face a decision

345
00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:42,340
their say-so oh I really want to go back

346
00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:44,770
I I have to take care of my kids and

347
00:16:48,030 --> 00:16:46,090
they're actually given a choice and

348
00:16:51,210 --> 00:16:48,040
they're given the ability to go back or

349
00:16:53,940 --> 00:16:51,220
not go back this kind of contradicts the

350
00:16:58,380 --> 00:16:53,950
idea that you know we are just down here

351
00:17:01,290 --> 00:16:58,390
for a lesson everything is planned out

352
00:17:02,820 --> 00:17:01,300
or that these two realms at least these

353
00:17:04,860 --> 00:17:02,830
two that we're talking about here are

354
00:17:06,780 --> 00:17:04,870
really separate because clearly these

355
00:17:08,130 --> 00:17:06,790
realms are interacting but let me give

356
00:17:10,319 --> 00:17:08,140
you another example that I think really

357
00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:10,329
intrigues me as well and it's rarely

358
00:17:15,090 --> 00:17:12,250
ever talked about in this realm one of

359
00:17:17,250 --> 00:17:15,100
the first aspects of the paranormal that

360
00:17:19,410 --> 00:17:17,260
got me interested in this from a very

361
00:17:22,140 --> 00:17:19,420
practical sense was the idea of a

362
00:17:25,199 --> 00:17:22,150
psychic detective because i saw these TV

363
00:17:27,900 --> 00:17:25,209
show and i said gee I don't know a lot

364
00:17:30,660 --> 00:17:27,910
about police work but I know if you get

365
00:17:33,060 --> 00:17:30,670
a hardon 20-year homicide detective

366
00:17:35,550 --> 00:17:33,070
that's not someone you're just gonna go

367
00:17:37,470 --> 00:17:35,560
in and tell a story too and he's going

368
00:17:39,900 --> 00:17:37,480
to fall for it so the fact that these

369
00:17:42,810 --> 00:17:39,910
psychics were able to connect with

370
00:17:44,700 --> 00:17:42,820
people who had passed away and said hey

371
00:17:46,770 --> 00:17:44,710
I have information to get you about

372
00:17:49,020 --> 00:17:46,780
solving this case I found intriguing and

373
00:17:51,120 --> 00:17:49,030
I followed it up quite extensively and

374
00:17:53,340 --> 00:17:51,130
found that there was just no doubt that

375
00:17:55,230 --> 00:17:53,350
that's true but here's the angle Michael

376
00:17:56,370 --> 00:17:55,240
here's the angle that really intrigues

377
00:17:59,130 --> 00:17:56,380
me that I don't hear people talking

378
00:18:02,280 --> 00:17:59,140
about this is not a mission of love per

379
00:18:05,130 --> 00:18:02,290
se this is much more of a human kind of

380
00:18:07,830 --> 00:18:05,140
mission a mission of I must avenge my

381
00:18:10,500 --> 00:18:07,840
death uh justice mice must be done uh

382
00:18:14,580 --> 00:18:10,510
you know find the killer kind of thing

383
00:18:17,910 --> 00:18:14,590
in it to me plays out as above so below

384
00:18:19,950 --> 00:18:17,920
that this extended dimension at least

385
00:18:22,110 --> 00:18:19,960
some of these extended dimensions that

386
00:18:24,780 --> 00:18:22,120
we're talking about here are really much

387
00:18:26,670 --> 00:18:24,790
like ours and I think sometimes when we

388
00:18:28,980 --> 00:18:26,680
talk about we talk about them like there

389
00:18:30,990 --> 00:18:28,990
are so much different than ours of which

390
00:18:32,730 --> 00:18:31,000
I'm sure there are but maybe there's so

391
00:18:34,890 --> 00:18:32,740
many of them we can't even imagine but

392
00:18:37,350 --> 00:18:34,900
some of them seem to be a lot like ours

393
00:18:40,260 --> 00:18:37,360
what do you think about that evidence

394
00:18:42,210 --> 00:18:40,270
from spiritualism and so on is we take

395
00:18:44,540 --> 00:18:42,220
ourselves into the next world for better

396
00:18:46,740 --> 00:18:44,550
or worse and our opinions and

397
00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:46,750
personalities too there are many sides

398
00:18:49,310 --> 00:18:48,610
to the spiritual world which you don't

399
00:18:52,289 --> 00:18:49,320
understand

400
00:18:55,229 --> 00:18:52,299
Arsene what is God said everything that

401
00:18:57,810 --> 00:18:55,239
you see an experience and you cannot see

402
00:18:59,669 --> 00:18:57,820
and don't know and don't understand he's

403
00:19:01,499 --> 00:18:59,679
infinitely more than we can understand

404
00:19:03,419 --> 00:19:01,509
i'm agreeing what you say for the

405
00:19:06,149 --> 00:19:03,429
further back let's talk about channeling

406
00:19:07,289 --> 00:19:06,159
because that's really i jumped right

407
00:19:09,570 --> 00:19:07,299
into the middle of this conversation

408
00:19:11,549 --> 00:19:09,580
Michael I thought that we would just

409
00:19:13,139 --> 00:19:11,559
have a chat you know before an interview

410
00:19:14,609 --> 00:19:13,149
but I think this is turning into the

411
00:19:16,769 --> 00:19:14,619
interview so we'll just kind of wing it

412
00:19:19,739 --> 00:19:16,779
from here and i'll do a proper

413
00:19:21,419 --> 00:19:19,749
introduction early on or maybe at the

414
00:19:23,489 --> 00:19:21,429
end and then i'll paste it back at the

415
00:19:25,259 --> 00:19:23,499
beginning so that people can pick up on

416
00:19:26,180 --> 00:19:25,269
this conversation but there's a lot of

417
00:19:29,729 --> 00:19:26,190
good things here to talk about

418
00:19:32,669 --> 00:19:29,739
channeling intrigues me and let me just

419
00:19:36,210 --> 00:19:32,679
ask some really basic questions about

420
00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:36,220
your experience and the first one would

421
00:19:42,509 --> 00:19:40,090
be what do you think is happening when

422
00:19:44,489 --> 00:19:42,519
you talk to stephen and you know what I

423
00:19:46,529 --> 00:19:44,499
got to scratch that question first you

424
00:19:49,289 --> 00:19:46,539
have gonna have to tell people what is

425
00:19:52,769 --> 00:19:49,299
your experience with channeling who is

426
00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:52,779
this being this entity Stephen how did

427
00:19:57,599 --> 00:19:54,970
he come about tell us the basic story i

428
00:20:00,840 --> 00:19:57,609
give maybe too long for this interview

429
00:20:03,749 --> 00:20:00,850
go ahead it starts off a Catholic lady

430
00:20:06,810 --> 00:20:03,759
called olive ashman in bed with her

431
00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:06,820
husband Tom and Tom has not previously

432
00:20:15,090 --> 00:20:09,850
been a medium but he talking he starts a

433
00:20:19,769 --> 00:20:15,100
token asleep and the olive his voice a

434
00:20:22,859 --> 00:20:19,779
sick ecclesia spiritus Sanctus thus in

435
00:20:25,289 --> 00:20:22,869
the church is the Holy Spirit and she

436
00:20:27,899 --> 00:20:25,299
found that tom was able to go into

437
00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:27,909
trials and the spirit continue to talk

438
00:20:34,889 --> 00:20:31,450
and identified him with Stephen medicine

439
00:20:38,070 --> 00:20:34,899
sevenoaks in kent I here in New Zealand

440
00:20:40,649 --> 00:20:38,080
on that about that same day received a

441
00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:40,659
book of prophecies from Olivia didn't

442
00:20:46,259 --> 00:20:43,330
know call mrs. copia from the pokey in

443
00:20:48,239 --> 00:20:46,269
North Island about me and what was about

444
00:20:49,739 --> 00:20:48,249
to happen to me okay so let me get this

445
00:20:54,539 --> 00:20:49,749
straight first of all what year is this

446
00:21:00,060 --> 00:20:54,549
about 1973 okay so this is 1973 so now

447
00:21:02,310 --> 00:21:00,070
that's what 40 43 44 years ago and it

448
00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:02,320
later you you discover you just get the

449
00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:02,770
book

450
00:21:06,390 --> 00:21:04,210
offices you don't know anything about

451
00:21:08,460 --> 00:21:06,400
this other experience going on in Kent

452
00:21:10,650 --> 00:21:08,470
but later you find that it happened at

453
00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:10,660
exactly the same time that's right the

454
00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:14,290
three months later olive and Tom ashman

455
00:21:19,700 --> 00:21:16,690
are here in Christchurch New Zealand and

456
00:21:22,290 --> 00:21:19,710
by a curious coincidence I met them and

457
00:21:24,570 --> 00:21:22,300
invited me to talk to Stephen so I

458
00:21:26,730 --> 00:21:24,580
joined them and had several other people

459
00:21:29,070 --> 00:21:26,740
talking wait a minute so at this point

460
00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:29,080
they had established communication with

461
00:21:34,860 --> 00:21:32,530
this spirit entity and they understood

462
00:21:38,220 --> 00:21:34,870
that spirit entity to be Stephen at that

463
00:21:39,870 --> 00:21:38,230
point they did it and and who is Stephen

464
00:21:42,090 --> 00:21:39,880
tell folks who steven is and how they

465
00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:42,100
knew it was Stephen Stephen was the

466
00:21:48,420 --> 00:21:45,850
first Christian lava and he said to

467
00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:48,430
share all of her he was and they

468
00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:50,770
believed it I didn't initially believed

469
00:21:56,580 --> 00:21:53,050
it when I taught it took a little while

470
00:21:59,730 --> 00:21:56,590
to trust him but his feet was humble

471
00:22:02,430 --> 00:21:59,740
loving and furious basic christianity

472
00:22:04,950 --> 00:22:02,440
but also trying to tell us about the

473
00:22:07,620 --> 00:22:04,960
nature of reality which is very close to

474
00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:07,630
the point of view of reality being put

475
00:22:13,890 --> 00:22:11,410
forward by richard rohr our HR here is a

476
00:22:17,210 --> 00:22:13,900
Franciscan luck here is favored by the

477
00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:17,220
pipe so reconfirming to me recently that

478
00:22:24,030 --> 00:22:20,650
Stephens message and rose message are

479
00:22:26,490 --> 00:22:24,040
very similar ok these folks make contact

480
00:22:28,620 --> 00:22:26,500
with the spirit entity in 1973 the same

481
00:22:30,750 --> 00:22:28,630
day you get this book of prophecies by

482
00:22:32,670 --> 00:22:30,760
some strange coincidence they come to

483
00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:32,680
christchurch new zealand they meet you

484
00:22:35,700 --> 00:22:34,570
you're an anglican priest they start

485
00:22:37,650 --> 00:22:35,710
talking to they say we've had this

486
00:22:41,130 --> 00:22:37,660
amazing experience we want you to share

487
00:22:44,250 --> 00:22:41,140
it with us we're talking to stephen join

488
00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:44,260
in this experience of ours i got that

489
00:22:50,910 --> 00:22:47,770
right yep now after rough maybe a year i

490
00:22:54,540 --> 00:22:50,920
still listen it's a bit of a thing to

491
00:22:57,090 --> 00:22:54,550
swallow actually talking to stephen i

492
00:22:59,340 --> 00:22:57,100
recognize how good the teaching was but

493
00:23:01,530 --> 00:22:59,350
was it actually Stephen in fact someone

494
00:23:04,470 --> 00:23:01,540
suggested it was a kindly spirit

495
00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:04,480
masquerading as Stephen well I want to

496
00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:06,930
taste even in a nun language other than

497
00:23:12,540 --> 00:23:10,090
English you say you want to test Stephen

498
00:23:14,580 --> 00:23:12,550
yes I was quite sure how much of the

499
00:23:16,409 --> 00:23:14,590
mind of the medium was in this right

500
00:23:19,710 --> 00:23:16,419
right so you want to test that's good

501
00:23:23,609 --> 00:23:19,720
I like it yeah I did and he said sorry

502
00:23:27,779 --> 00:23:23,619
the next time Stephen said carlo da da

503
00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:27,789
da da ki karna chahti borrow Xilai

504
00:23:33,450 --> 00:23:30,970
Lineker melody esta you thought he can

505
00:23:36,389 --> 00:23:33,460
translate that but it means for the

506
00:23:38,220 --> 00:23:36,399
conex symbol for the kilt and what

507
00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:38,230
language would that be the language of

508
00:23:43,529 --> 00:23:40,570
common Greek about the air what the

509
00:23:46,139 --> 00:23:43,539
beginning of time Jesus life it is the

510
00:23:50,580 --> 00:23:46,149
dialect however it turned out it is

511
00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:50,590
spoken in macedonia oh sorry bulgaria

512
00:23:58,560 --> 00:23:55,330
modern lives in calls race and the area

513
00:24:00,269 --> 00:23:58,570
of turkey around I think Iraq and folks

514
00:24:02,899 --> 00:24:00,279
will folks will naturally be interested

515
00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:02,909
to know how did how did you confirm that

516
00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:07,330
precise a dialect you know identify it

517
00:24:13,169 --> 00:24:10,090
and trace it it took longer a while and

518
00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:13,179
did you have a recording of it or yes I

519
00:24:17,580 --> 00:24:15,850
did I had recorded and then returns the

520
00:24:20,489 --> 00:24:17,590
tried to put so they're coming through

521
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:20,499
this woman's husband and he's speaking

522
00:24:24,749 --> 00:24:22,450
it in a clear enough way for you to

523
00:24:26,430 --> 00:24:24,759
record it and then for some expert to

524
00:24:29,700 --> 00:24:26,440
give you an analysis of it that's pretty

525
00:24:31,590 --> 00:24:29,710
amazing yes I know the Greek at that

526
00:24:34,619 --> 00:24:31,600
time that's how I was able to translate

527
00:24:37,739 --> 00:24:34,629
it but he used some the word endings

528
00:24:40,470 --> 00:24:37,749
were anomalous Randolph he used a word

529
00:24:42,379 --> 00:24:40,480
peculiar to the native Thracian language

530
00:24:46,049 --> 00:24:42,389
which actually has never been written

531
00:24:49,919 --> 00:24:46,059
accepted Greek grammarian had recorded

532
00:24:53,039 --> 00:24:49,929
it where's ill I which meant why little

533
00:24:55,889 --> 00:24:53,049
complicated references and so turned out

534
00:24:59,639 --> 00:24:55,899
what he's saying was the word he had

535
00:25:03,529 --> 00:24:59,649
used speaking to Joseph the parent of

536
00:25:06,749 --> 00:25:03,539
Jesus as he entered in a scene camp in

537
00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:06,759
Galilee and the camp was called the

538
00:25:12,419 --> 00:25:09,970
Nazarene sect of the Essenes and he

539
00:25:15,330 --> 00:25:12,429
spoke it on the occasion that he'd had

540
00:25:18,659 --> 00:25:15,340
two years no vitiated or preparation and

541
00:25:20,519 --> 00:25:18,669
he's about to be interred received in

542
00:25:23,489 --> 00:25:20,529
fear scenes and from the Dead Sea

543
00:25:26,729 --> 00:25:23,499
Scrolls was able to discover it led to

544
00:25:29,470 --> 00:25:26,739
enter the Essenes you had to enter have

545
00:25:33,190 --> 00:25:29,480
a messianic communion service

546
00:25:36,610 --> 00:25:33,200
in which you diluted grape juice with

547
00:25:38,650 --> 00:25:36,620
water because they quickly was to do

548
00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:38,660
about the necessity of diluting this

549
00:25:44,919 --> 00:25:41,570
grape juice it made no sense took about

550
00:25:48,190 --> 00:25:44,929
30 years to vote Myrtle out so the big

551
00:25:50,919 --> 00:25:48,200
picture story you begin these dialogues

552
00:25:53,890 --> 00:25:50,929
you have to be intrigued overwhelmed

553
00:25:55,390 --> 00:25:53,900
you're you're skeptical yo or curious

554
00:25:57,340 --> 00:25:55,400
like you said you want to check things

555
00:25:59,110 --> 00:25:57,350
out you want to test things but I'm

556
00:26:01,360 --> 00:25:59,120
taking it that the more and more you get

557
00:26:03,430 --> 00:26:01,370
into it you're like I have to I have to

558
00:26:05,860 --> 00:26:03,440
collect this information and then I have

559
00:26:07,570 --> 00:26:05,870
to do what with it what was your first

560
00:26:09,250 --> 00:26:07,580
thought when you started doing this and

561
00:26:11,650 --> 00:26:09,260
then how did it go I mean how many

562
00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:11,660
sessions did you have how often did you

563
00:26:14,470 --> 00:26:13,250
had them have them what did you do with

564
00:26:16,419 --> 00:26:14,480
the material and what were your thoughts

565
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:16,429
when this stuff started coming through

566
00:26:21,370 --> 00:26:19,010
this a long period of time this is 40

567
00:26:22,990 --> 00:26:21,380
like we say 43 years well were there

568
00:26:24,820 --> 00:26:23,000
phases I mean what was it like at the

569
00:26:27,789 --> 00:26:24,830
beginning was it like at the meat middle

570
00:26:30,220 --> 00:26:27,799
you know that's a difficult question we

571
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:30,230
always on a high when we're talking to

572
00:26:36,010 --> 00:26:33,770
him we got a little dispirited neta he

573
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:36,020
was giving such good advice such

574
00:26:41,140 --> 00:26:38,690
co-teaching we found ourselves ah not

575
00:26:43,180 --> 00:26:41,150
quite able to live up to it and and

576
00:26:46,090 --> 00:26:43,190
people Noah Griffith getting divorced

577
00:26:48,730 --> 00:26:46,100
and and oh where we can't underbid being

578
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:48,740
no human beings I'm sorry to say but the

579
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:51,410
teaching continued do they go back to

580
00:26:55,120 --> 00:26:52,970
canter how does it continue did they

581
00:26:56,830 --> 00:26:55,130
move to Christchurch they stayed here

582
00:26:58,390 --> 00:26:56,840
and you formed a little group and then

583
00:27:00,760 --> 00:26:58,400
how often would you meet and what would

584
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:00,770
be the nature of these meetings how long

585
00:27:04,690 --> 00:27:02,690
would the would the reader the sessions

586
00:27:08,020 --> 00:27:04,700
go what would you do with them how did

587
00:27:11,650 --> 00:27:08,030
that we had we had 200 sessions and then

588
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:11,660
so rich like wow actually my book the

589
00:27:20,020 --> 00:27:15,850
group kind of the teaching stopped in

590
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:20,030
1981 another session in 1993 and then

591
00:27:26,980 --> 00:27:23,330
the Bellator son that was over but we

592
00:27:31,210 --> 00:27:26,990
had all the synchronicity Rosa will be

593
00:27:33,630 --> 00:27:31,220
given objects lessons as to what life in

594
00:27:36,100 --> 00:27:33,640
spirit meant so the continual

595
00:27:37,870 --> 00:27:36,110
coincidences in hundreds and hundreds

596
00:27:40,120 --> 00:27:37,880
and hundreds of them in fact before I

597
00:27:42,970 --> 00:27:40,130
talked to Stephen I was experiencing all

598
00:27:44,740 --> 00:27:42,980
this and coincidences

599
00:27:47,010 --> 00:27:44,750
now trot acceptance from the main

600
00:27:49,930 --> 00:27:47,020
university of melbourne shrouded

601
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:49,940
doctrine of divinity thesis on

602
00:27:55,890 --> 00:27:53,570
coincidence i never did it because land

603
00:27:59,530 --> 00:27:55,900
although i had a huge amount of data

604
00:28:01,720 --> 00:27:59,540
stephen to end up and sorry talk to

605
00:28:04,539 --> 00:28:01,730
Stephen all this time but before I get

606
00:28:07,930 --> 00:28:04,549
into more of the scientific stuff which

607
00:28:10,120 --> 00:28:07,940
is really just not that important in in

608
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:10,130
interesting in one sense in another

609
00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:13,490
sense it's what we all want to in our

610
00:28:17,799 --> 00:28:16,250
logical rational mind want to pull apart

611
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:17,809
and I want to do that pulling apart

612
00:28:22,030 --> 00:28:19,730
because I think that's helpful

613
00:28:23,770 --> 00:28:22,040
especially for us men a lot of times

614
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:23,780
what we need is we need to deconstruct

615
00:28:28,180 --> 00:28:26,330
it and understand it logically before we

616
00:28:30,310 --> 00:28:28,190
can feel it spiritually and emotionally

617
00:28:31,900 --> 00:28:30,320
at least I'm like that and I think a lot

618
00:28:33,730 --> 00:28:31,910
of other people are like that but let's

619
00:28:37,539 --> 00:28:33,740
put that aside because what I want to

620
00:28:40,450 --> 00:28:37,549
know is you are a man of God you've been

621
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:40,460
on that path for a long time how did

622
00:28:45,820 --> 00:28:43,850
this information hit you spiritually how

623
00:28:48,460 --> 00:28:45,830
did it make you how did it make you feel

624
00:28:50,350 --> 00:28:48,470
what did it did it challenged any of

625
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:50,360
your existing beliefs it certainly had

626
00:28:55,299 --> 00:28:52,490
to challenge some of your quote-unquote

627
00:28:57,280 --> 00:28:55,309
religious beliefs what was that

628
00:28:59,350 --> 00:28:57,290
experience the spiritual experience like

629
00:29:01,750 --> 00:28:59,360
for you encountering this infamous I

630
00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:01,760
always read a liberal and I went to a

631
00:29:08,919 --> 00:29:04,850
modernist college at Oxford through

632
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:08,929
college and and so I always prepare to

633
00:29:13,270 --> 00:29:11,330
question it didn't grease in my basic

634
00:29:16,570 --> 00:29:13,280
belief in love of God love of neighbor

635
00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:16,580
and I've always been a generalist I've

636
00:29:20,830 --> 00:29:18,770
always been prepared to say that people

637
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:20,840
other religions are like me and there it

638
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:23,450
could equal access to whatever God is

639
00:29:29,620 --> 00:29:25,970
that i have i did a degree in philosophy

640
00:29:32,710 --> 00:29:29,630
in psychology and I've my problem has

641
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:32,720
been thinking because master of all the

642
00:29:39,730 --> 00:29:36,410
stuff is feeling actually and so took me

643
00:29:42,940 --> 00:29:39,740
a long time nothin to electrolyze very

644
00:29:46,750 --> 00:29:42,950
much I'm phrase taken to my 80s before I

645
00:29:49,510 --> 00:29:46,760
finally gave away being clever that's

646
00:29:52,149 --> 00:29:49,520
awesome when you encountered Stephen

647
00:29:54,789 --> 00:29:52,159
then how did it change you spiritual was

648
00:29:56,290 --> 00:29:54,799
it a slow change instant change did you

649
00:29:59,440 --> 00:29:56,300
fall on your knees in

650
00:30:01,750 --> 00:29:59,450
I did you what was it like I've done

651
00:30:03,850 --> 00:30:01,760
that before I may not admit it you know

652
00:30:05,500 --> 00:30:03,860
I've had spiritual experiences that have

653
00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:05,510
drawn me to that I mean what was it like

654
00:30:11,380 --> 00:30:08,570
for you well I can go on Oh before I met

655
00:30:14,020 --> 00:30:11,390
Steven uh-uh this is an example of how i

656
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:14,030
affected me I remember River Ripken

657
00:30:19,930 --> 00:30:17,690
suffered which is on mr. Cole Islamic

658
00:30:22,540 --> 00:30:19,940
group where they are awfully to

659
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:22,550
Chancellor to meet God as well without

660
00:30:27,580 --> 00:30:24,890
benefit of Bible or clergy and that

661
00:30:29,710 --> 00:30:27,590
attracted me an idea and in the end I

662
00:30:32,710 --> 00:30:29,720
found myself falling in the crying heap

663
00:30:35,350 --> 00:30:32,720
because I'd given away something that I

664
00:30:37,780 --> 00:30:35,360
feel has dying I didn't I of course but

665
00:30:40,300 --> 00:30:37,790
it felt like at the moment after that

666
00:30:43,810 --> 00:30:40,310
very same night obviously still very

667
00:30:46,390 --> 00:30:43,820
much alive I went to listen to a string

668
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:46,400
quartet I spoiled the whole evening by

669
00:30:51,460 --> 00:30:48,530
being envious about the skill of these

670
00:30:53,500 --> 00:30:51,470
people were playing their music NASA

671
00:30:56,140 --> 00:30:53,510
don't be such a stupid person Michael

672
00:30:59,530 --> 00:30:56,150
you spoiling a spiritual experience by

673
00:31:01,960 --> 00:30:59,540
your Envy okay well that's obvious I you

674
00:31:04,870 --> 00:31:01,970
think it's obvious to prevent harm to my

675
00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:04,880
study and I have a voice said to me I

676
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:07,370
should call my belly under and knock

677
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:09,170
under a certain book lays everything I'd

678
00:31:16,060 --> 00:31:12,890
find a book and I was trying to page 73

679
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:16,070
so I did what the voice said found the

680
00:31:23,260 --> 00:31:18,770
book and leave the prime and Christian

681
00:31:26,020 --> 00:31:23,270
read code for music by Thomas Gray on a

682
00:31:28,750 --> 00:31:26,030
full at remembering actual words but the

683
00:31:31,860 --> 00:31:28,760
gist was don't spoil a spiritual

684
00:31:34,630 --> 00:31:31,870
experience by envy Envy no musicians

685
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:34,640
well are you I knew that in the first

686
00:31:40,330 --> 00:31:37,250
place but you see was that taught me my

687
00:31:43,330 --> 00:31:40,340
mind's not he and I hate my mind is much

688
00:31:44,950 --> 00:31:43,340
wider than it and and then that's what

689
00:31:48,100 --> 00:31:44,960
the band but that I told you that story

690
00:31:51,850 --> 00:31:48,110
because that's just general the general

691
00:31:53,980 --> 00:31:51,860
and just saw what Steven to say we are

692
00:31:55,530 --> 00:31:53,990
all each other we're all connected to

693
00:31:59,230 --> 00:31:55,540
each other and our job is to

694
00:32:01,600 --> 00:31:59,240
acknowledges and feel it okay so now

695
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:01,610
we're going to do the other part of it

696
00:32:06,250 --> 00:32:04,010
the intellectual part of it the part of

697
00:32:08,230 --> 00:32:06,260
it that you've sworn off of and I'm

698
00:32:10,050 --> 00:32:08,240
trying to wean myself off of but we

699
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:10,060
still have to indulge in

700
00:32:15,330 --> 00:32:12,010
a little bit what do you think is

701
00:32:18,510 --> 00:32:15,340
happening during the channeling process

702
00:32:19,620 --> 00:32:18,520
what is your best guess in terms of if

703
00:32:20,370 --> 00:32:19,630
you were going to break that down you

704
00:32:22,620 --> 00:32:20,380
know so we had an interesting

705
00:32:24,900 --> 00:32:22,630
conversation and I'm glad we did before

706
00:32:27,570 --> 00:32:24,910
this about talking about the psychic

707
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:27,580
who's connecting with the person who was

708
00:32:32,850 --> 00:32:30,250
murdered and her that person's agenda or

709
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:32,860
that spirits agenda is vengeance and

710
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:35,770
justice we talked about the other mother

711
00:32:40,650 --> 00:32:38,530
who dies and meets her mother and her

712
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:40,660
mother holds her and loves her and says

713
00:32:44,190 --> 00:32:42,610
yes honey but it's not your time you

714
00:32:47,220 --> 00:32:44,200
should go back to your body and it's

715
00:32:49,470 --> 00:32:47,230
purely a love experience I believe well

716
00:32:51,690 --> 00:32:49,480
that's what is your best guess in terms

717
00:32:55,230 --> 00:32:51,700
of what's happening here because this is

718
00:32:56,730 --> 00:32:55,240
of a different nature this is uh I think

719
00:32:58,230 --> 00:32:56,740
that's one of the things that people

720
00:32:59,970 --> 00:32:58,240
have a hard time especially me have a

721
00:33:01,680 --> 00:32:59,980
hard time wrapping my head around what

722
00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:01,690
the heck is Steven doing coming back

723
00:33:08,580 --> 00:33:05,290
writing books I knew I i can say that

724
00:33:11,100 --> 00:33:08,590
Stevens message is very similar to that

725
00:33:14,070 --> 00:33:11,110
with the Franciscans Franciscan theology

726
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:14,080
it's down to it for for every day

727
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:16,330
however it's not really every day

728
00:33:23,460 --> 00:33:20,410
because there are levels levels of unit

729
00:33:25,890 --> 00:33:23,470
love levels of spirituality to which we

730
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:25,900
can send the higher we go to more we are

731
00:33:31,050 --> 00:33:28,450
each other the lower grows more separate

732
00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:31,060
r ER and steven says him he no longer

733
00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:33,490
inhabits the tent of personality of

734
00:33:38,970 --> 00:33:36,370
Steven he is a healer damn much more

735
00:33:41,490 --> 00:33:38,980
wider consciousness than that but to

736
00:33:45,030 --> 00:33:41,500
talk to us savory don't feel afraid and

737
00:33:47,070 --> 00:33:45,040
he comes back to the 10-12 his familiar

738
00:33:49,230 --> 00:33:47,080
Kent and talk from that point of view

739
00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:49,240
let me let me interject that I didn't

740
00:33:53,010 --> 00:33:51,610
really phrase my question very well it's

741
00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:53,020
all kind of approach it from a different

742
00:33:57,120 --> 00:33:55,090
angle Michael event I've interviewed a

743
00:33:59,520 --> 00:33:57,130
lot of Chandler's not a lot but I've

744
00:34:01,880 --> 00:33:59,530
interviewed several channelers on this

745
00:34:06,660 --> 00:34:01,890
show I interviewed one who claimed to

746
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:06,670
channel Thomas and was clearly a fraud

747
00:34:13,830 --> 00:34:09,490
he was proven to me a fraud and to be

748
00:34:17,940 --> 00:34:13,840
his channeled material was verbatim of a

749
00:34:19,890 --> 00:34:17,950
poor translation of the book of Thomas

750
00:34:21,390 --> 00:34:19,900
and he didn't even do a good job of it

751
00:34:23,820 --> 00:34:21,400
he had picked one of the wrong

752
00:34:27,630 --> 00:34:23,830
translation to do so we have that

753
00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:27,640
we also have people who maybe are doing

754
00:34:33,450 --> 00:34:30,370
real channeling but their personal lives

755
00:34:36,030 --> 00:34:33,460
do not hold up to scrutiny you know the

756
00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:36,040
whole what the bleep do we know film was

757
00:34:40,860 --> 00:34:39,130
based on the channel material not the

758
00:34:42,450 --> 00:34:40,870
whole film wasn't based on it but the

759
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:42,460
person behind it was this woman JZ

760
00:34:47,850 --> 00:34:44,770
Knight who claimed to be channeling this

761
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:47,860
35 thousand year old warrior spirit raw

762
00:34:52,230 --> 00:34:50,410
and maybe she was maybe she wasn't but

763
00:34:54,450 --> 00:34:52,240
she wound up also getting involved in

764
00:34:56,700 --> 00:34:54,460
all this kind of nefarious stuff of

765
00:34:59,040 --> 00:34:56,710
making money and selling horses and

766
00:35:01,680 --> 00:34:59,050
saying this horse is a reincarnation of

767
00:35:04,050 --> 00:35:01,690
this and that so there's the hucksters

768
00:35:06,390 --> 00:35:04,060
through the fraudsters but then there's

769
00:35:09,270 --> 00:35:06,400
a lot of people in between that are

770
00:35:11,370 --> 00:35:09,280
getting material that when it's

771
00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:11,380
scrutinized doesn't hold up to scrutiny

772
00:35:17,820 --> 00:35:14,530
in the way that we would expect so how

773
00:35:21,570 --> 00:35:17,830
are we to understand the channeled

774
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:21,580
material in that context one way of

775
00:35:26,340 --> 00:35:23,490
asking that that's kind of maybe the

776
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:26,350
direct way is what the why is God

777
00:35:31,050 --> 00:35:29,050
letting this go on Pais God letting all

778
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:31,060
sorts of channel the material come

779
00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:34,410
through some of which is clearly false

780
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:37,690
some of which is delusional and some of

781
00:35:41,970 --> 00:35:40,330
which is probably as you've investigated

782
00:35:45,590 --> 00:35:41,980
the best you can as best you can

783
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:45,600
determine is genuine what's going on I

784
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:48,970
don't think there is quite a head office

785
00:35:54,710 --> 00:35:51,810
in control I think together we are God

786
00:35:58,290 --> 00:35:54,720
Sam spirits are paying some and not

787
00:36:01,140 --> 00:35:58,300
sucess and John said test the spirits I

788
00:36:04,140 --> 00:36:01,150
think Stephen teaching on a time would

789
00:36:06,870 --> 00:36:04,150
do is sell feather dating but I got a

790
00:36:09,270 --> 00:36:06,880
couple of professors to test my Greek

791
00:36:10,710 --> 00:36:09,280
research and this it couldn't have been

792
00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:10,720
through it couldn't have been fought

793
00:36:17,240 --> 00:36:14,170
forged at this point do you believe that

794
00:36:21,350 --> 00:36:17,250
the material you've gotten back is

795
00:36:24,420 --> 00:36:21,360
historical some of it huh / cause when I

796
00:36:28,290 --> 00:36:24,430
Christians Steven bow but as a loser his

797
00:36:30,450 --> 00:36:28,300
the dialect and I said my first thought

798
00:36:32,850 --> 00:36:30,460
he must have come from Thrace for the

799
00:36:36,370 --> 00:36:32,860
reason I've said I said no he was born

800
00:36:39,039 --> 00:36:36,380
on there on the banks of the

801
00:36:42,039 --> 00:36:39,049
from a river on the other side overall

802
00:36:44,380 --> 00:36:42,049
the river from ancient encara or modern

803
00:36:48,190 --> 00:36:44,390
Ankara he lived he said in the village

804
00:36:51,099 --> 00:36:48,200
called seletar I said yes ah what the

805
00:36:53,049 --> 00:36:51,109
name mean a fourth landing place he said

806
00:36:55,630 --> 00:36:53,059
and then when I looked it up in the

807
00:36:59,470 --> 00:36:55,640
middle and Scott's Greek lexicon of an

808
00:37:03,910 --> 00:36:59,480
route our TA are in some Greek toilets

809
00:37:06,910 --> 00:37:03,920
trending force emblem Celia in the kind

810
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:06,920
of a try so either it would be feasible

811
00:37:12,430 --> 00:37:09,410
that says that would mean force landing

812
00:37:16,089 --> 00:37:12,440
place that's one thing he win referring

813
00:37:21,150 --> 00:37:16,099
to the blessings are the essence let's

814
00:37:26,170 --> 00:37:21,160
prepare our Hebrew where Aramaic and

815
00:37:29,289 --> 00:37:26,180
they had in the Aramaic language they

816
00:37:31,029 --> 00:37:29,299
had a grape juice Philip festival given

817
00:37:34,650 --> 00:37:31,039
a Hebrew name which I've just forgotten

818
00:37:38,259 --> 00:37:34,660
for the moment Steven talking in Greek

819
00:37:40,870 --> 00:37:38,269
referred to the Atheneum grape juice

820
00:37:43,839 --> 00:37:40,880
festival and the interosseous festival

821
00:37:47,109 --> 00:37:43,849
had to do with the delusional of grape

822
00:37:51,839 --> 00:37:47,119
juice so there's two different kinds of

823
00:37:54,339 --> 00:37:51,849
grape juice festivals one of them well

824
00:37:57,490 --> 00:37:54,349
both cultures had their grape juice

825
00:37:59,589 --> 00:37:57,500
festivals uh-huh but that the one had

826
00:38:01,299 --> 00:37:59,599
this specific unique thing where they

827
00:38:06,579 --> 00:38:01,309
dilute the where they dilute the wine

828
00:38:08,650 --> 00:38:06,589
and I'm 100 across either in the service

829
00:38:13,079 --> 00:38:08,660
then in the Messianic communion service

830
00:38:15,999 --> 00:38:13,089
that the essence held they polluted the

831
00:38:21,870 --> 00:38:16,009
graduations water receiving referred to

832
00:38:26,499 --> 00:38:21,880
the earth earth Enoch Athens equivalent

833
00:38:30,609 --> 00:38:26,509
speaking in Greek ah I kind of see what

834
00:38:34,599 --> 00:38:30,619
you mean so again the point is there's

835
00:38:38,319 --> 00:38:34,609
all these idiosyncrasies to the

836
00:38:41,249 --> 00:38:38,329
tradition that of the time that he has

837
00:38:44,470 --> 00:38:41,259
this deep knowledge of that it is just

838
00:38:47,549 --> 00:38:44,480
impossible to believe that this guy from

839
00:38:49,989 --> 00:38:47,559
Kent we just you know wrong gonna know

840
00:38:52,419 --> 00:38:49,999
it's just impossible to

841
00:38:54,519 --> 00:38:52,429
took me 30 years of research before I

842
00:38:56,829 --> 00:38:54,529
finally got it right and not a

843
00:38:59,559 --> 00:38:56,839
coincidences consulted the Dead Sea

844
00:39:02,949 --> 00:38:59,569
Scrolls yeah everything right Eva

845
00:39:05,169 --> 00:39:02,959
couldn't come out of his head he invited

846
00:39:07,959 --> 00:39:05,179
to be checked one time is talking to us

847
00:39:09,879 --> 00:39:07,969
Tom the median rent in two trials with

848
00:39:13,599 --> 00:39:09,889
his feet dangling from her high chair

849
00:39:16,029 --> 00:39:13,609
and Sir Stephen comes on and says yay

850
00:39:20,229 --> 00:39:16,039
verily I perceive that I must be a saint

851
00:39:23,049 --> 00:39:20,239
I see my feet are in me or in the air so

852
00:39:26,949 --> 00:39:23,059
a little bit of a sense of humor huh we

853
00:39:28,059 --> 00:39:26,959
certainly did everyone is again again

854
00:39:31,059 --> 00:39:28,069
the question I've asked it a couple

855
00:39:34,959 --> 00:39:31,069
times but I have to ask it again what is

856
00:39:38,919 --> 00:39:34,969
this telling you about the nature of

857
00:39:41,739 --> 00:39:38,929
that other realm that Stephen occupies

858
00:39:43,509 --> 00:39:41,749
number one and what does it tell you

859
00:39:47,109 --> 00:39:43,519
about the nature of the interaction

860
00:39:49,869 --> 00:39:47,119
between that realm and our realm because

861
00:39:52,539 --> 00:39:49,879
here's a guy he's playing around he says

862
00:39:54,219 --> 00:39:52,549
he's he's kind of transcended beyond

863
00:39:56,589 --> 00:39:54,229
this but he'll come down to this level

864
00:39:59,169 --> 00:39:56,599
embody this spirit level that then he

865
00:40:01,389 --> 00:39:59,179
can interact and then he interacts in a

866
00:40:03,819 --> 00:40:01,399
playful way I mean there's a lot of

867
00:40:06,129 --> 00:40:03,829
subtle messages beyond the big picture

868
00:40:09,129 --> 00:40:06,139
message of love everyone tell the truth

869
00:40:13,449 --> 00:40:09,139
there's another message about the nature

870
00:40:15,429 --> 00:40:13,459
of these realms and how they're

871
00:40:17,069 --> 00:40:15,439
interacting that I find interesting and

872
00:40:20,109 --> 00:40:17,079
I think a lot of people find interesting

873
00:40:23,499 --> 00:40:20,119
it's very hard to characterize one of

874
00:40:26,439 --> 00:40:23,509
the things he says is that wonder we

875
00:40:30,129 --> 00:40:26,449
asked him one time why did the murder

876
00:40:32,079 --> 00:40:30,139
kill Kennedy so Stephen said I shall

877
00:40:35,439 --> 00:40:32,089
have to become the murderer to find out

878
00:40:37,989 --> 00:40:35,449
so in a sense it's very hard to define

879
00:40:39,279 --> 00:40:37,999
who we are in the next life there's a

880
00:40:42,219 --> 00:40:39,289
lot of folks out there that have

881
00:40:45,459 --> 00:40:42,229
concerns about channeled information

882
00:40:47,469 --> 00:40:45,469
about mediumistic information and about

883
00:40:49,539 --> 00:40:47,479
whether it's dangerous whether it comes

884
00:40:52,179 --> 00:40:49,549
to them either spontaneously or whether

885
00:40:55,059 --> 00:40:52,189
they seek it out and we know where we

886
00:40:57,939 --> 00:40:55,069
have suspicions that there are spirits

887
00:41:00,459 --> 00:40:57,949
out there that are not interested in our

888
00:41:02,319 --> 00:41:00,469
well-being do you have any insight into

889
00:41:03,340 --> 00:41:02,329
that any words of caution or do you

890
00:41:08,470 --> 00:41:03,350
think

891
00:41:10,770 --> 00:41:08,480
we have to worry we should earn as sin

892
00:41:13,630 --> 00:41:10,780
Johnson and his epistle test the spirits

893
00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:13,640
okay look really practically how would

894
00:41:17,770 --> 00:41:15,050
you what do you mean when you say that

895
00:41:20,170 --> 00:41:17,780
how would you test a spirit well my

896
00:41:23,050 --> 00:41:20,180
artist was Stephen was festival we pray

897
00:41:26,290 --> 00:41:23,060
true for protection we did always pray

898
00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:26,300
for that but Stephen was consistently

899
00:41:32,020 --> 00:41:29,090
humble and loving and sensible so he

900
00:41:34,240 --> 00:41:32,030
kind of validated himself so did live

901
00:41:36,220 --> 00:41:34,250
happenings in from the city centre do

902
00:41:38,410 --> 00:41:36,230
that I see what the synchronicities

903
00:41:41,460 --> 00:41:38,420
would be confirming but I'm intrigued by

904
00:41:44,620 --> 00:41:41,470
this idea of testing him other than just

905
00:41:46,900 --> 00:41:44,630
testing that he was consistently humble

906
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:46,910
and sending messages that you felt were

907
00:41:52,630 --> 00:41:49,490
consistent with goodness as you knew it

908
00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:52,640
were there any other tests that you did

909
00:41:57,070 --> 00:41:54,410
that you would pass along to people as

910
00:42:00,880 --> 00:41:57,080
as ways to kind of determine if you're

911
00:42:05,170 --> 00:42:00,890
talking to a good spirit I can't think I

912
00:42:06,910 --> 00:42:05,180
can think of a rule but the one but like

913
00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:06,920
human relationships you have to be very

914
00:42:14,470 --> 00:42:09,970
cautious I'm talking to you because I

915
00:42:17,020 --> 00:42:14,480
feel uh-uhh in sympathy with you and

916
00:42:18,820 --> 00:42:17,030
feel with you not true you should come

917
00:42:22,510 --> 00:42:18,830
on different down but by doing this at

918
00:42:25,150 --> 00:42:22,520
ease have you heard of the the trickster

919
00:42:27,460 --> 00:42:25,160
as a possible explanation you have so I

920
00:42:30,310 --> 00:42:27,470
have it what do you make of that because

921
00:42:33,730 --> 00:42:30,320
there is a certain playful element in

922
00:42:36,070 --> 00:42:33,740
this that seems to be a little bit

923
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:36,080
beyond what we normally think of when we

924
00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:39,410
think about paya spiritual training I

925
00:42:43,570 --> 00:42:40,610
mean there is that there's a playful

926
00:42:46,530 --> 00:42:43,580
part of this that is Stephens playful

927
00:42:51,580 --> 00:42:46,540
why though why would I be playful why

928
00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:51,590
that's our experience love hmm we play

929
00:42:58,980 --> 00:42:56,170
the fool Michael on its is great work uh

930
00:43:02,280 --> 00:42:58,990
tell us what's going on with the book

931
00:43:04,510 --> 00:43:02,290
tell us about the ground of faith and

932
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:04,520
tell us about what's going on with you

933
00:43:11,710 --> 00:43:07,010
right now know what's going on through

934
00:43:14,650 --> 00:43:11,720
right now as I'm getting older but until

935
00:43:16,780 --> 00:43:14,660
still talk okay you're getting older

936
00:43:18,430 --> 00:43:16,790
does that mean you're feeling a

937
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:18,440
a compulsion to kind of get this

938
00:43:23,830 --> 00:43:20,930
information out in a new way tell us

939
00:43:25,240 --> 00:43:23,840
about the ground of faith that's the

940
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:25,250
reason I do have recurred compulsion

941
00:43:33,490 --> 00:43:28,970
clothing Stevens important the ground of

942
00:43:37,210 --> 00:43:33,500
faith was a journal I founded 14 years

943
00:43:40,570 --> 00:43:37,220
ago and it's called her a fairly wide

944
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:40,580
readership rid of most reason in the

945
00:43:46,420 --> 00:43:44,210
state's Ukraine surprisingly france and

946
00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:46,430
germany hungary in england and

947
00:43:51,630 --> 00:43:48,650
accredited Australian New Zealand and

948
00:43:56,170 --> 00:43:51,640
I'm trying to draw attention to all the

949
00:43:59,500 --> 00:43:56,180
main people about psychical research why

950
00:44:01,300 --> 00:43:59,510
is the psychical research important to

951
00:44:03,130 --> 00:44:01,310
you because you know we started this

952
00:44:06,130 --> 00:44:03,140
conversation we kind of went along that

953
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:06,140
line and then at one point I like that

954
00:44:10,390 --> 00:44:08,450
you just kind of when we went down there

955
00:44:11,950 --> 00:44:10,400
too far and talked about the simulation

956
00:44:14,220 --> 00:44:11,960
you said it's this is rubbish it's just

957
00:44:17,380 --> 00:44:14,230
a bunch of crap I sometimes feel like

958
00:44:21,610 --> 00:44:17,390
when we go down the psychical research

959
00:44:23,650 --> 00:44:21,620
angle down that path we're kind of we

960
00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:23,660
have to go there because some people are

961
00:44:27,730 --> 00:44:25,610
drawn to that but on another hand we

962
00:44:30,850 --> 00:44:27,740
know it's [\h__\h] it's just [\h__\h]

963
00:44:32,890 --> 00:44:30,860
it's distraction I mean the spirit is

964
00:44:36,490 --> 00:44:32,900
where it's at the spiritual is where

965
00:44:38,470 --> 00:44:36,500
it's at exactly so so what uses the

966
00:44:42,010 --> 00:44:38,480
psychical research why do we why do we

967
00:44:45,130 --> 00:44:42,020
go there well I'm not a wonderful

968
00:44:48,940 --> 00:44:45,140
psychic i have psychical moments but

969
00:44:51,700 --> 00:44:48,950
some people Sun communicators are great

970
00:44:54,370 --> 00:44:51,710
and good and red liver say our listening

971
00:44:56,740 --> 00:44:54,380
to and all stuff published by white crow

972
00:44:58,180 --> 00:44:56,750
books oh I've interviewed him and I've

973
00:45:00,610 --> 00:44:58,190
also interviewed a couple other people

974
00:45:02,590 --> 00:45:00,620
from micro but Michael Tim stories I

975
00:45:05,110 --> 00:45:02,600
think know pretty real worth while

976
00:45:06,730 --> 00:45:05,120
tilling absolutely and it's an important

977
00:45:09,820 --> 00:45:06,740
part of history as well its history

978
00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:09,830
history I don't call a bit of what he's

979
00:45:17,140 --> 00:45:14,450
doing but i but i am i'm at Reggie when

980
00:45:20,980 --> 00:45:17,150
I am religious in that in my own way and

981
00:45:23,980 --> 00:45:20,990
I recognize religulous the feeling of

982
00:45:27,340 --> 00:45:23,990
unity between people and they could

983
00:45:28,550 --> 00:45:27,350
thing o Shah love all the doctrine the

984
00:45:30,620 --> 00:45:28,560
Christian idea

985
00:45:32,450 --> 00:45:30,630
for communion service is good because

986
00:45:35,030 --> 00:45:32,460
we're having communion with each other

987
00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:35,040
with the rest of the world unfeeling our

988
00:45:40,070 --> 00:45:37,890
wellness we also have rubbish but chad

989
00:45:42,710 --> 00:45:40,080
has never defeat to change this kind of

990
00:45:45,380 --> 00:45:42,720
do that preserve the community and the

991
00:45:48,140 --> 00:45:45,390
togetherness so here's the point of

992
00:45:51,020 --> 00:45:48,150
churches human and fallible as they

993
00:45:53,990 --> 00:45:51,030
certainly are Michael final question why

994
00:45:56,600 --> 00:45:54,000
do you think Stephen st. Stephen the

995
00:46:01,070 --> 00:45:56,610
martyr why did Stephen come through to

996
00:46:04,190 --> 00:46:01,080
you at this time um I think with a sense

997
00:46:08,300 --> 00:46:04,200
similar type you and Stephen uh-huh we

998
00:46:11,810 --> 00:46:08,310
belong to the same kind of group the

999
00:46:14,900 --> 00:46:11,820
book is available obviously through all

1000
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:14,910
the regular places sorry amazon usually

1001
00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:17,490
through amazon but then the ground of

1002
00:46:22,340 --> 00:46:19,770
the ground of faith is kind of turning

1003
00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:22,350
over and going to be your kind of

1004
00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:24,290
changing that to be more directed

1005
00:46:29,900 --> 00:46:27,810
principally towards uh Walt old Stephen

1006
00:46:31,250 --> 00:46:29,910
more towards Stephen just kind of coming

1007
00:46:32,930 --> 00:46:31,260
out with it and saying hey this is

1008
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:32,940
really my life's work this is what we

1009
00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:35,010
need to kind of push forward with I'm

1010
00:46:41,090 --> 00:46:37,130
being a bit more aggressive about it

1011
00:46:43,460 --> 00:46:41,100
well very great to meet your home's

1012
00:46:45,550 --> 00:46:43,470
who've been a great pleasure mine as

1013
00:46:49,250 --> 00:46:45,560
well Michael I appreciate it and I I I

1014
00:46:51,260 --> 00:46:49,260
like you know I have hard interviews and

1015
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:51,270
I like to kind of push people pretty

1016
00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:53,490
hard and you're just like you're too

1017
00:46:58,160 --> 00:46:55,530
good you're too solid you're rock solid

1018
00:47:02,810 --> 00:46:58,170
there's nothing we can do we can't we

1019
00:47:05,390 --> 00:47:02,820
can't upset you tremendous talking to

1020
00:47:08,150 --> 00:47:05,400
you and I will try and edit this into

1021
00:47:09,980 --> 00:47:08,160
something that sounds reasonable and I

1022
00:47:11,990 --> 00:47:09,990
will certainly send it to you so you

1023
00:47:14,780 --> 00:47:12,000
have a link to the to the show when we

1024
00:47:16,130 --> 00:47:14,790
put it up thank you very much thanks

1025
00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:16,140
again to Michael Cox for joining me

1026
00:47:19,430 --> 00:47:17,850
today on skeptic oh you know it was kind

1027
00:47:21,050 --> 00:47:19,440
of a hassle putting this interview

1028
00:47:22,940 --> 00:47:21,060
together because i don't know i had to

1029
00:47:25,430 --> 00:47:22,950
do a lot editing on it and I wound up

1030
00:47:29,030 --> 00:47:25,440
listening to parts over and over again

1031
00:47:32,420 --> 00:47:29,040
but as i did i was more and more

1032
00:47:35,060 --> 00:47:32,430
impressed by some of the deep messages

1033
00:47:37,430 --> 00:47:35,070
that Michael has brought forward in this

1034
00:47:39,500 --> 00:47:37,440
book whether you think they came from

1035
00:47:42,010 --> 00:47:39,510
Steven or not there are some pretty

1036
00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:42,020
profound spiritual truths

1037
00:47:45,820 --> 00:47:44,090
in here that that I think are quite

1038
00:47:49,750 --> 00:47:45,830
amazing so the one question I have to

1039
00:47:54,160 --> 00:47:49,760
tee up from this interview is what are

1040
00:47:55,990 --> 00:47:54,170
the pitfalls and opportunities regarding

1041
00:47:58,660 --> 00:47:56,000
channeled material and to what extent

1042
00:48:01,750 --> 00:47:58,670
has Michael distinguished himself above

1043
00:48:05,080 --> 00:48:01,760
the crowd and deliver to us something

1044
00:48:07,030 --> 00:48:05,090
significant here love to hear your

1045
00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:07,040
thoughts on that you can contact me

1046
00:48:13,390 --> 00:48:09,410
through the skeptical forum or through

1047
00:48:15,400 --> 00:48:13,400
the skeptical website at ske pti k oh

1048
00:48:17,410 --> 00:48:15,410
you can also reach me on facebook and

1049
00:48:20,530 --> 00:48:17,420
all the other usual places you have a

1050
00:48:22,450 --> 00:48:20,540
number of great shows coming up and a

1051
00:48:24,610 --> 00:48:22,460
bunch more interviews in the hopper I

1052
00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:24,620
can't seem to curb my passion for

1053
00:48:29,740 --> 00:48:27,130
talking to all these really cool

1054
00:48:31,900 --> 00:48:29,750
interesting people so i'm looking

1055
00:48:37,090 --> 00:48:31,910
forward to bringing that all to you